This is due to two reasons. The party lost due to anti-incumbency. There was a lot of anger bottled up among people who went and voted against the party. Now, most of these MLAs and even the MPs were newbies. They did not have a political background or any background of struggle, so they could not contemplate fighting in a difficult situation. They did not have the spine, so they were looking for a way out. The BJP launched ‘Operation Lotus’ first in West Bengal and then among MPs in Delhi. The BJP has enormous resources and funds and they can also threaten people with the CBI and the ED. So, they were successful. Some people may have had personal grievances, such as Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar. She was upset that her son was not given a ticket for the Assembly polls. All this snowballed into what you see as an exodus from the TMC. It’s a difficult situation.

As a veteran party leader, how do you see the party navigating the situation?

I feel that Mamata Banerjee must listen to the grievances of people who are still with the party. She must talk to people. If there are grievances against Abhishek Banerjee, she must tackle those also. Secondly, she must also chart out a plan of movement. She is known for her feisty persona, so she must fight this because the BJP at the lowest level is torturing Trinamool people, beating them up, vandalising party offices and putting TMC people in jail. She must fight against it.

Plus, she must also take the support of the INDIA bloc, particularly the Congress. People have faced worse situations before. Indira Gandhi herself lost in 1977, but she recovered within three years. So I still believe that instead of reacting to instantaneous problems, the party must fight back.

Should she also speak to these so-called rebel or dissident MLAs and MPs?

Yes, she must. How much these dissident MPs and MLAs have gone down the line, I don’t know. How much they have committed to the BJP or what they have taken from the BJP, I don’t know. But an effort must be made.

What are these grievances the dissident MLAs and MPs have?

Yes, I told you. One grievance relates to the high-handedness of Abhishek Banerjee. The other is that there is nobody to listen to the grievances within the party.

Do you also feel there is high-handedness?

Not personally, but I see, generally, people’s reactions.

Will removing Abhishek from party positions or keeping him out solve the problems?

I don’t want to make drastic statements. Who am I to say all these things? I think grievances must be addressed.

Today, veteran leader Kalyan Banerjee, who has so far been strongly standing with Mamata Banerjee, also came out and said she should choose between Abhishek and the party.

I have seen that also. I do not know; I have not talked to him. So I don’t know exactly what the grievances are.

Doesn’t that show even the party elders who have not gone against Mamata are feeling slightly disturbed now?

Yes, let us see.

When Mamata Banerjee was in Delhi, she had a meeting with Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi. Then Abhishek also met with Rahul. Is a merger with the Congress on the table?

It is early days yet. That is media speculation. But something must be done to foster closer ties with the Congress.

Are you in favour of a merger, or do you think Trinamool should remain independent and fight back with close cooperation with the Congress?

We should fight. Whether we should do it by merging the party or not is a matter to be considered. But the party should fight back.

Are you still with Mamata Banerjee?

As of now.

As of now, that is interesting. Have any of these rebel MPs spoken to you or reached out to you? Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar or anyone else?

No, no. I talked to some of them before they left. I did not talk to Kakoli. I met her, but I did not talk to her. But the BJP bigwigs have talked to me.

What did they say?

It is part of their Lotus operation. ‘Why don’t you come?’

Was there an invitation?

Yes, there was an invitation.

Is it still in the consideration stage, or have you rejected it?

As of now, consideration is closed.

But is it ‘as of now’?

As of now.